"You can't exactly replicate anything from one form of the media to the other. Things that work perfectly in comics won't work perfectly in movies." (-Stan Lee)
Part of the Batman/comic book fanbase is quite preoccupied with how faithful the big screen adaptations are to the comic book source. For a fact, none of the movies are, and they all made numerous and significant changes - changed origins, merged characters etc. All of them took liberties, none more, none less.
The puzzling aspect of it is that faithfulness has nothing to do with quality. Whether it’s faithful or not is irrelevant to how good the movie or the story is. In the long run it has nothing to do with a quality. Being faithful to the source and quality are two completely different things which do not affect each other. The great late Stanley Kubrick's The Shining had little to do with the actual book, yet it's a masterpiece. However at the time of the release it fell victim of this misguided criticism. Adapting stories into movies is not a concept of who can do a more identical adaptation, that’s not the point of it and it’s not how it works, otherwise all adaptations would be a mirror images of the stories. Kubrick knew the book and didn’t make changes accidentally. He took the interesting aspects of it and the core of it but used it as a springboard for an original and great movie. It’s about taking a core of the mythology and adjusting, changing and using what suits and serves a new and original story of the movie, not to have a checklist of what to do.
It shouldn’t be important whether a movie is a good Batman movie – it should be important whether it’s a good movie period. If the filmmakers were limited by being faithful to the comic books it would’ve been terribly limiting, and we wouldn’t have an original, comic inspired characters like the tragic character of Penguin in Batman Returns or the young, face cut masochist that the Joker is in The Dark Knight.
The Animated Series' "Heart of Ice" is one of the most praised stories yet it completely went against the comic story, making Mr Freeze a character with pathos. Should it be condemned because it's not like in the comics, or should it be praised for the creation of a tragic character and a great story filled with heart and pathos?
The Animated Series' "Heart of Ice" is one of the most praised stories yet it completely went against the comic story, making Mr Freeze a character with pathos. Should it be condemned because it's not like in the comics, or should it be praised for the creation of a tragic character and a great story filled with heart and pathos?
James Cameron once said that you may do a perfect justice to history, but you may not get the feel of the experience/event right. It’s more important to get the feel of it rather than historically accurate facts
James Cameron: I feel personally that one could be very factual about [the source subject] and very correct and not be as truthful emotionally. (Charlie Rose int. 1997)
Also, one must remember that there’s no such thing as “right” Batman or a “definite” Batman. The character went through different variations, and each is just as valid as the other. As Jonah Nolan and Bruce Timm said, there’s no definitive version of the character, there are just different flavors.
Jonathan Nolan: Just like walking into a comic book store and seeing 8 different versions of Batman, it feels very natural to have the same sort of thing with the movies.(BOF 2008)
Bruce Timm: I’ve said it over and over again – Batman as a character is such a strong concept, he’s the kind of character that you can take him in any number of ways and it still feels right (PR 2010)
Tim Burton wasn’t familiar with the comic books before he went on to do Batman and also, neither was Christopher Nolan and they read only what was passed to them by studio and their writers. Nolan specifically said that he only knows the character but was never a fan of comics that’s why he hired someone who was - Goyer, which is an exact situation with Burton and the comic expert Sam Hamm.
Christopher Nolan: Ive always been a big fan of the character but I am by no means any kind of comic book expert. I felt I needed a writer on the project who really knew the character, really knew the comic world (Making of Batman Begins)
While I’m not a huge comic book fan — I never pretend to be, it’s very dangerous to pretend to be a comic book fan — I was smart to surround myself by writers like my brother (Jonathan Nolan) and David Goyer (verbicide magazine)
While I’m not a huge comic book fan — I never pretend to be, it’s very dangerous to pretend to be a comic book fan — I was smart to surround myself by writers like my brother (Jonathan Nolan) and David Goyer (verbicide magazine)
“The source material is irrelevant. The challenge with Batman is to find what is a believable character. You put your stamp on it.” (comicbookmovie.com int 2012)
That way there’s a great mix of approaches – a gifted director who isn’t familiar or restricted by the knowledge of the comic books and a writer who knows it all. Joel Schumacher was the only Batman director who had a prior experience with the comic books, reading Batman when growing up
Then there’s the issue of the time frame. Tim Burton’s movies are almost entirely based on the original year of Batman, with a small mix of modern age thrown in into the mix. Not a big time frame, and the same goes even for Nolan, whose movies and Bat world, even tho reflecting the Modern Age, are based on a handful of comics which weren’t even a part of the regular series. But there’s absolutely nothing wrong with that because its about quality - a characteristics which supersedes faithfulness and quantity.
Also, whether the era lasted for only a year or decades is irrelevant. Batman was a campy, smiling character for decades and most of his history. The longevity also has nothing to do with quality, and one era is no less valid than any other.
And if for some reason one is hung up on changes to the mythology done by the films, then there’s nothing for him to look at in any of the movies.
Lets just take a look at the changes
Bruce trained different things with different masters, body with someone different, mind with someone different, chemistry with someone different, guns with someone different and detective skills with someone different.
- Entire origins are redone since he’s not a deformed bleached person, the fall into chemical vat doesn’t take place. Also, it was the first glance at the deformed self that pushed him into insanity in the comic books
- Is far younger than the comic counterpart which was clearly depicted as an aged man
- Doesn't use the smile inducing deadly toxin
One must remember that The Long Halloween was not a part of the regular continuity, however since in the end there IS a comic that pre exist the movie depicting the coin as being his father's, one may chose not to accept it as contradiction
BATMAN
* Batman:
- In the movie Batman has a yellow oval emblem from the beginning instead of the early suit with big black bat and a mask with short ears. The yellow oval and longer ears didn’t appear until later in his career, according to every continuation. One may also point out the two extra points on the Bat emblem, but it was done several times in comic books, mainly the 1980s. For example, see The Killing Joke (original unaltered release) and The Dark Knight Returns
- Uses black eye makeup
- Uses black eye makeup
- He wears an all black body suit instead of a two colored spandex suit. Even though a handful of times throughout the history he’s been shown to wear a Kevlar or bulletproof vest underneath the spandex, he was still wearing a spandex suit (and also, the instances of Batman wearing Kevlar underneath the suit comparably are so rare that in comparison to all the history, it’s like a drop of water in a pool)
* Vicky Vale being a blonde instead of a redhead
* Gordon in the movie isn’t a habitual smoker and doesn’t wear glasses
* Harvey Dent is an African American
* Alfred isn’t a an extremely thin, black haired balding man with small mustache
* Joker:
- His previous identity is not Red Hood
- He is the murderer of the Waynes
- Has a revealed name (while technically not a contradiction and the name appeared numerous times later in the comic books, up until 1989 his name wasn’t mentioned)
* Waynes
- There’s no indication that the Wayne
- Two killers instead of one (although as in the comics, there’s a strong evidence that it was a mob job under the cover of robbery)
- The identity of the killer is Jack Napier instead of Joseph Chilton nicknamed Joe Chill
BATMAN
RETURNS
1. Batman:
- Wears an all black body suit instead of a two colored spandex suit.
- Eye makeup
2. Catwoman:
- In the movie she is wearing all black vinyl suit instead of spandex or a dress
- Max Shreck is the man responsible for her trauma that releases her inner side instead of a plane crash that does it in the comics
- She doesn't steal anything. Although reinterpreted many times over the years, Catwoman is depicted as pursuing monetary gain – either by stealing jewels or going directly for the money itself.
- In the movie she’s a secretary instead of a flight attendant or prostitute as in modern age (although the blond hair, the nine lives ambiguity and the awakening of a different side after a head trauma is all from golden age)
3. Penguin:
- In the comics he wasn't a deformed freak seeking revenge on society, but a diamond crook and a mobster
- In the movie he doesn’t try to act like a gentleman of crime
- In the movie he leads a circus gang
4. Gordon isn’t a habitual smoker and doesn’t wear glasses like he is in the comics
5. Alfred isn’t a an extremely thin, black haired balding man with small mustache like he is in the comics
BATMAN FOREVER
1. Dick Grayson’s parents are killed by Two Face instead of thugs hired by Boss Zucco
2. Robin:
- Wearing Tim Drake's suit in the movie
- Wearing a body suit instead of spandex
- Initially reluctant to stay with Wayne
- Has nipples on the suit
3. Riddler:
- Edward Nygma was never working for Wayne Enterprise in the comics
- Idolized and obsessed with Bruce Wayne
- Extremely flamboyant
4. Batman:
- Wears a body suit instead of a two colored spandex suit.
- Eye makeup
5. Arkham reflects the version shown in The Animated Series more than the then comic book version (although after Arkham has been destroyed by Bane it was relocated to a castle-like structure)
6. Dr Burton being a head of Arkham instead of Jeremiah Arkham
7. Gordon isn’t a habitual smoker and doesn’t wear glasses as in the comics
8. Alfred isn’t a an extremely thin, black haired balding man with small mustache as in the comics
BATMAN & ROBIN
1.Mr Freeze:
- His origins and story reflects that of The Animated Series, not the comics
2. Robin
-Wears Nightwing’s costume
- Has sculpted nipples on the suit
- Wears a body suit instead of spandex
3. Batman wears a one colored body suit and eye makeup
4. In the movie Jason Woodrue creates venom and Bane
5. Bane:
- In the movie his name is revealed
- In the movie he doesn’t team up with characters who are his trusted and loyal servants and who played an important part in his origins: Trogg, Bird and Zombie
- He also doesn’t break out alone from Pena Duro
- Isn’t extremely an extremely intelligent, well read and skilled genius
- Isn’t obsessed with Batman
- Works for Poison Ivy
6. Batgirl:
- Wears a body suit
- She's not Gordon’s daughter, although it’s worth remembering that the Batgirl in Batman and Robin wasn’t really based on Barbara Gordon beyond the use of her first name. She was really an amalgamation of two characters from the sixties comics: the original Batgirl, Betty Kane, and Alfred’s niece, Daphne. If you evaluate her depiction in those terms, she’s actually very close to the comics.
7. Gordon isn’t a habitual smoker and doesn’t wear glasses like in the comics
8. Alfred isn’t a an extremely thin, black haired balding man with small mustache like in the comics
BATMAN BEGINS
1. Ra’s Al Ghul :
- Didn’t teach Batman in the comics
- Calls Batman “Bruce” instead of “Detective”
- Is the same person as Henri Ducard
- Isn’t immortal
- Doesn't have a daughter
- Doesn't wear a green cape
-In the movie he is (indirectly) responsible for Bruce's parents' death
- Doesn't wear a green cape
-In the movie he is (indirectly) responsible for Bruce's parents' death
2. Henri Ducard in the movie:
- Isn’t a greedy French detective who taught Batman detective skills and gave him a firearms training, and instead is merely an alter ego of Ra’s Al Ghul
3. “The League of Assassins” is called “The League of Shadows”
4. Origins of Batman are redone:
-Rachel character is present during his fall into the cave
- Waynes
- In the comic books, young Bruce Wayne decided to become an outlawed crime fighter days after his parents' death and almost instantly started his quest. He used his parents money to travel the world incognito at the age of 10, leaving to Tibet with fake ID and documentations in order to allow him to travel at such young age, to learn different skills from best masters in the world, (all that while studying law and acting goofy and unfocused in the University to avoid suspicions in the future)
Bruce trained different things with different masters, body with someone different, mind with someone different, chemistry with someone different, guns with someone different and detective skills with someone different.
His origins and motivation in Batman Begins were altered from the comic book version. None of the above actually takes place and Bruce is shown as a troubled and flawed young man driven by selfish revenge which he promised his parents, who comes to understand the wrongdoing of his actions and motivations. That gives the character a little more complexity and drama, giving him a character arc very early in the story. Bale's Bruce goes to Princeton and eventually drops out. He then comes back to Gotham with the intention of killing Joe Chill. As Bale said, up to that point, he was a spoiled angry young man with no understanding of real life. It wasn't until Rachel's rough talk that this angry young "prince" started rethinking things and changing. his way of thinking. Right after Rachel's harsh words he went on to think things over and eventually changed his entire outlook also realizing that the gun that he was holding was a tool used to take the loved ones from him and he never used or thought of using guns again. Confused and lost, he decides to leave everything behind and run. He leaves to Asia where he learns how regular, "real" people live, living among the poor and seeing how criminals work and think, eventually ending up in a prison but still without any purpose or meaning in life. Christian Bale describes Bruce in this phase of his life as an "older angry guy in the jail, in Bhutan
After a long journey to the top of the hill, Bruce realizes what he truly wants in life, which is seeking the "means to fight injustice" and is then trained in martial arts by the League of Shadows. He turns against them since he refuses to kill.
Also, this altered origin story makes no reference to his time training with law enforcement agencies.
He spends the whole time training his body, but we never see him training his mind.
- In the comics Bruce attempted to kill Chill with the same gun that his parents were killed with, not with his father's gun
5. Flass is fat and weak, instead of being a very tall, strong blonde man who's an ex green beret
6. Gordon isn’t a habitual smoker
7. Batman doesn’t startle Gordon each time he makes an appearance as he does in the comics
8. Alfred isn’t a an extremely thin, black haired balding man with small mustache
9. Batman
- Wears body suit instead of two colored spandex
- Eye makeup
- Isn't shown as being skilled in advanced technology or chemistry ("I'm meant to understand any of that?"), and having someone do it for him instead. While in the comic books there was Harold who fixed and designed different gadgets, he didn't appear until late in Batman's career, long after Wayne had already built and designed everything by himself
- Isn't shown as being skilled in advanced technology or chemistry ("I'm meant to understand any of that?"), and having someone do it for him instead. While in the comic books there was Harold who fixed and designed different gadgets, he didn't appear until late in Batman's career, long after Wayne had already built and designed everything by himself
10. Jonathan Crane has actually minimum in common with his comic counterpart
- He isn't an old, incredibly skinny college professor set on revenge on the University that he taught at
- Owns/works in Arkham
- Is a criminal psychiatrist
- Works with Falcone and Ra’s
- When gassed with his own poison Crane sees a demon in Batman, but his biggest fear in the comic books were birds (and later bats)
- Doesn't wear a hat and wears only a mask instead of an entire costume
- Doesn't seem to have Scarecrow's unique "violent dancing" fighting technique
- When gassed with his own poison Crane sees a demon in Batman, but his biggest fear in the comic books were birds (and later bats)
- Doesn't seem to have Scarecrow's unique "violent dancing" fighting technique
11. Arkham isn’t located in outskirts as in the comics
12. GOTHam City
13. Zsasz:
- Isn't a blonde guy
- In the movie he is a mob hitman for hire as oppose to his comic counterpart who is blond man killing only for sadistic pleasure and not teaming up with anybody
14. Joe Chill:
- In the movie he's a frightened man pushed by depression instead of being a killer for hire as he was in both pre and post Crisis continuities
- His name is actually Joe Chill instead of Joseph Chilton
15. Commissioner Loeb:
- In the movie he's an African American
- In the movie he doesn’t appear to be corrupted or plotting with Flass against Gordon
16. In the movie Lucius Fox is a technical expert who knows Batman’s secret identity and builds his weapons for him. In the comics he’s just a CEO who runs Wayne Enterprises and his background is in finance, not applied science.
THE DARK KNIGHT
1. Joker:
- In the movie HE is (indirectly) responsible for Two Face’s insanity and scars.
- Wears makeup instead of having a permanently dyed hair and skin
- Entire origins are redone since he’s not a deformed bleached person, the fall into chemical vat doesn’t take place. Also, it was the first glance at the deformed self that pushed him into insanity in the comic books
- Is far younger than the comic counterpart which was clearly depicted as an aged man
- As oppose to the comic books, hes a masochist and doesn’t react to pain
- Has a long and curly hair
- Doesn’t have any kind of personalized gadgets and killer prank accessories
- Doesn’t look like the classic mobster in a hat, striped pants and evening suit
- Doesn’t appear to be preoccupied with his looks and obsessed with himself
- Doesn’t match any of the comic book incarnations (although takes pieces from some of them and mixes together). He’s not the Golden Age Joker since the Golden Age Joker was lusting for diamonds and art pieces and wanted to kill Batman.
It was also someone who deeply cared for his reputation and didn’t want to fail or be embarrassed in public.
He isn’t the Silver Age Joker as he’s not a relatively harmless prankster and a crook, and he also isn’t the Modern Age Joker since the Modern Age Joker is a person who was permanently bleached and uses gadgets like Batman does, from acid pies to exploding pillows. He is called a "Clown Prince of Crime" because he truly is a clown and is behaving like one, doing everything in a big way acting like a ringmaster, using hideouts related to his clownish personality like deserted amusement parks and similar types of places.
Also, the Modern Age Joker mentioned several times that he doesn’t want him dead, yet there were far more instances where he had every intention to kill him after that.
Also, the Modern Age Joker mentioned several times that he doesn’t want him dead, yet there were far more instances where he had every intention to kill him after that.
- Is a physical match for Batman – that only happened in the very first issues of Batman and only because every single villain at the time was a physical match for Batman. The Joker few issues down the road and the Joker of the Silver and Modern Ages never stood a slightest chance against Batman
- Doesn't use the smile inducing deadly toxin
2. Batman
- Wears padded bodysuit instead of two colored spandex suit
- Eye makeup
3. Gordon isn't habitual smoker
4. Batman doesn't startle Gordon each time he makes an appearance
5. Alfred isn’t a an extremely thin, black haired balding man with small mustache
6. GOTHam city isn’t a gargoyle and church-filled Gothic looking city
7. Jonathan Crane not being an old, incredibly skinny college professor set on revenge on the University that he taught at
8. Comissioner Loeb being an African American, not being corrupted, not working against Gordon
9. Two Face:
- Gets his lucky coin from his father instead of Maroni. Throughout his history from the first appearance to the Modern Age/Post Infinite Crisis years (1942's Detective Comics #66, 1946's Batman comic strip, 1951′s Batman #68, Detective Comics #187 and 1980's The Untold Legends of Batman) the coin was an evidence in the court belonging to Moroni, however it's important to note that The Long Halloween, one of the handful, out-of-regular-run releases which Nolan's movies are mostly based on, depicted the coin as belonging to Dent's father. The official "Who's Who in DC Universe" guide also describes the coin in 1989 as belonging to Maroni and being the evidence in court against him.
- Gets his face burned in fire instead of getting it splashed with acid by Maroni
- Goes insane because of the loss of Rachel instead of going crazy over his look
- There is no reference to Two-Face having the split personality of his comic counterpart, nor is there any reference to his obsession with the number “2” or crimes connected to that motif.
Special thanks to Silver Nemesis for his input. If you have any confirmed additions, feel free to make the suggestion in the comments
There's way more differences than that with the Burton movies.
ReplyDeleteThere's way more in all of them, but at this particular moment I can't think of any, that's why I'm still open for suggestions
ReplyDeleteDon't forget Harvey Dent went MIA in Returns with no mention of what became of him.
ReplyDeleteThe stories are its own animals, theyre original so I didnt touch the storylines of the movies vs. the storylines of the comic books, only the characters, their behavior, origins, places and characteristics
ReplyDeleteAnother thing GothamStreet, Kim Basinger's character was actually based on Silver St. Cloud rather than the Vicki Vale of the comics. Silver's creator, Steve Englehart, had worked on an early draft of the script for Batman '89 and had written the character into the storyline as the central love interest. Owing to this character's relative obscurity at the time of the film's production, the script was rewritten to amalgamate Silver with the better known character of Vicki Vale. While Basinger's character bears a superficial resemblance to Vale (her name and background in journalism), her actual characterisation retains strong similarities with the Silver St. Cloud character. The Vicki Vale in this movie discovers Batman's true identity, something that her comic book equivalent never became aware of. Silver St. Cloud, on the other hand, found out that Bruce Wayne was Batman, and this knowledge ultimately placed a strain on their relationship that resulted in them splitting up. We find out in Batman Returns (1992) that Bruce and Vicki's relationship came to a similar conclusion.
ReplyDeleteWell, I dont fully agree. Vicky didnt really find out that Bruce is Batman until all the signs were there. Its also very likely that she didn't know until Alfred let her into the cave. St. Cloud peaced her informations together and noticed Wayne's occasional different behavior then confronted him in his Batman persona. Also, in the late 80s in the comics when Vale was in a hospital Bruce was trying to tell her that hes Batman the very same way as he did in the movie, not being able to finish the sentence and eventually circumstances prevailing it. Also, the reason why they went separate ways is because she couldnt deal with Wayne's duality, she didnt understand him. I believe she was originally to be St Cloud, yes, but Hamm and Skaaren rewrote her character completely to fit Vale more
ReplyDeleteAnd also in comics Vicky Vale was getting frustrated with Wayne not answering calls and disappearing all the time
ReplyDeleteI think Basinger's personality, and tenedency to act like the typical 'damsel in distress' at times (i.e. constantly shrieking and acting like a bit of a bimbo during the action scenes) in Batman would have suited rich society girl, Silver St. Cloud much more than photojournalist Vicki Vale, who we are meant to believe has spent significant time in warzones before coming to Gotham.
ReplyDeleteThere's a few errors in this. Two Face getting his coin from his father is not a goof. That was in The Long Halloween.
ReplyDeleteI guess that's a fair note which comes down to the fact that Nolan/Goyer version was based on the few issues which were outside of the normal continuity rather than an entire run. Two Face had about 4 different (but very similar) origins and every time when shown his origins it was either Moroni's or the person's that was being questioned. Not only that but the official Who's Who in DC Universe also confirms that the coin is Maroni's. I'll make a note of it tho
ReplyDeleteJust a note: You seem to imply that GOTHam City should feature a lot of GOTHic architecture. But the words "Gotham" and "gothic", though they sound similar, are completely unrelated. "Gotham comes from the Old English word meaning "goat home", as in a place where goats are kept. "Gothic" is derived from the Goth people.
ReplyDeleteTrue, but as a city that has a very long history and which is basically a little darker and more evil version of New York City, it should have a lot of Gothic structures and bricked buildings. I'm from the Manhattan area myself and I certainly don't get the feeling of the NYC in this modern Gotham City. Now let me just underline that it's not a problem for me at all, just noting that GC is actually a darker NYC from the Industrial Age when Batman was created, hence all the Gargoyles on the buildings and so many cathedrals
ReplyDeleteThere was no valid reason to completely change the ethnicity of the character Harvey Dent in Batman 89 and then abandon him with no mention of him whatsoever. It ranks along with the other pointless changes Burton made.
ReplyDeleteThere was no valid reason to completely change Commissioner's Loeb ethnicity and character either. Its what suits the character and going through the list I dont see any pointless changes in any of the movies. They all suit the story
ReplyDeleteThe difference between Nolan and Burton's movies is that Nolan makes sure he ties up ALL loose ends that he established while Burton the plonker does not...
ReplyDeleteoh another thing, in Batman Begins Ra`s Al Ghul`s name was pronounced "Raz" instead of "Raysh".
ReplyDeleteHow would anyone know how to pronounce a comic book name?
ReplyDeleteAsk Bruce Timm and his gang, they got Ra`s Al Ghul pronunciation right.
ReplyDeletein all of the batman myto is not allway is be to be same one you know like the 39-59 60-79 80-99 i was try say that from the comic to movie
ReplyDelete"How would anyone know how to pronounce a comic book name?"
ReplyDeleteBy looking at the origins of the name and of the traditional accent of the people that use it. In this case, anyway.
This is how you pronounced Ra`s Al Ghul`s name http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9Nkh2G443A
ReplyDeleteBy the way there is no "accurate" way to pronounce Ra's Al Ghul. And if anything, the way he's pronounced in BEGINS is more bad ass. "Raz" sounds threatning. "Raysh" Al Ghul sounds like a weird rash or STD.
ReplyDeleteAs for the need for "Gothic" architexture. This is coming from someone who runs this page who clearly has a thing for the Burton-verse. Chicago doubled for the majority of Gotham and it has Gothic Architexture. The court house that Batman surveys the city on after his first night out in BEGINS ... Gothic Architexture.
ReplyDeleteBut Gotham as a city shouldn't be confined to Gothic Architexture alone. I loved the claustrophobic slums of the Arkham section of Gotham in BEGINS.
Movie or story doesnt have to be complicated or raise moral questions to be good. Returns focused on Batman more because it showed his attempt at normal life and him opening up for the first time. It showed the tragic life of Selina and failed life of Bruce and rejected child like Penguin. Its full of emotions. And looking at the list, isnt Returns ironically the one with least deviations from the comics?
ReplyDeleteTheres so much what I love about returns that the "Nightmare That Tastes Like Candy" Article is all about it. But in short, I love the Gothic winter feel, the haunted score and the tragic stories that end up on a bad note for 3 tragic characters
ReplyDeleteThe Joker in the Dark knight was very true to his comics counterpart, and he is also a masochist in the comics and really the Joker in the Dark Knight is as old as his modern comics version when he first appeared in the modern retelling of Bat's early days particularly in the Man of who laughs.
ReplyDeleteAlso I believe it was mentioned in the Begins dvd bio for Ra's Al Ghul verified he in fact does have a daughter.
ReplyDeleteThe Joker in TDK did not match any verison of the comic Joker, but had elements of all of his incarnations. The Joker History article shows it better and its something Nolan also confiremd. TDK Joker is a mix of 3 different characters and only one of them is Joker. And Joker is not a masochist, he does not enjoy nor is he immune to physical pain and beating. Even in the example you gave, The Man Who Laughs, he gets beat up by Batman and stays down looking pretty roughed up. And throughout entire Modern Age and Bronze Age, Joker was never immune to pain and was often portrayed as being afraid of getting beat up. Knightfall, The Last Arkham and the Joker's own comic book are only few examples
ReplyDeleteAs for Ra's daughter, they were talking about the comic character, not the movie version
Actually, their are stories where the Joker seems to like pain. Granted most of the examples I'd cite would come from Grant Morrison. But take note that just because someone is a masochist and likes pain, doesn't mean they can't feel or show the effects. So the Joker "staying down and looking roughed up" doesn't mean he doesn't enjoy it. There IS and actual medical condition that prevents people from feeling pain. But even in TDK, there is no indication that he has this condition.
ReplyDeleteCan you cite me some examples? I think Ive read almost every Joker story from 40s, 70s and 80s (and most from 90s) but its very possible that I could skip through some
ReplyDelete(Part 1)
DeleteIn the series "The Last Laugh," Joker goads Nightwing into beating him to death and shows no signs of stopping him. He even makes nasty comments like "I hit Jason a lot harder than that. His name was Jason, right?"
He shows no aversion to pain at the beginning of his appearance in Hush, where Batman nearly beats him to death. Yes, he repeatedly says "Stop" in each panel that Batman pummels him, but it all leads up to him muttering "Stop...stop me if you've heard this one...Batman, I'm innocent."
In Shadow of the Bat #32 (Tears of a Clown), he doesn't quite laugh his way through it, but he shows remarkable resilience after being shot multiple times.
In the Under the Hood series, Jason Todd pins Joker to the wall with a knife through his shoulder. Joker merely laughs hysterically in response, even when the blade is forcibly pulled free. In the Animated version of "Under the Red Hood," when Todd asks Joker "How does that feel?" as he beats him with a crowbar, Joker replies "Oh, you know. It only hurts when I laugh."
At the end of Detective Comics #826 (Slayride), at the end, Joker is about to get hit by a semi-truck on a bridge. He stops, shrugs, and comments "If this weren't happening to me, it would be funny. Oh, what the hell, I can take a joke." He then is knocked off the overpass, laughing all the way.
In Spiderman & Batman: Disordered Minds (Which is considered canon, due to the Marvel vs. DC Crossover and the resulting Amalgam universe), Joker comments "I suppose you're going to beat me up now." Batman replies, "I won't lay a glove on you-- If you come quietly." Joker bites batman in the face and shouts "Sorry, old pal, it's just not my style!" While he may have been knocked out immediately afterwards, it's interesting nonetheless that he doesn't fear Batman's retaliation here. He almost welcomes it.
Also, in Disordered Minds, Joker shows fear after a neural inhibition chip is planted inside him to restrict his insane personality. As soon as Carnage destroys it, he immediately ignores whatever threats are nearby (namely Carnage) and wants the focus back on him, showing no fear of death or injury.
[Also, he spits one of my favorite quotes in this comic, too. As he breaks apart his short lived partnership with Carnage, he slyly states: "I've always thought of myself the Orson Welles of crime and chaos, while YOU, apparantly, aspire to be nothing more than David Hasslehoff!"]
(Part 2)
DeleteIn the last part of No Man's Land, Commissioner Gordon pistol-whips Joker across the jaw after his wife was murdered in cold blood by the sociopathic clown. Joker calmly replies "Commissioner! You'll be hearing from my attourney." He taunts Gordon further ("You have a little boy, too, don't you?"), which is when Gordon shoots him in the knee. His intial response isn't so much pain as it is shock. He cries out "Hey! Hey! You just gonna let him do that to me?!" He then follows it with a joke that puts him into stitches of laughter, despite having his kneecap just blown off. "He shot my knee! I may never...oh...LIKE YOUR DAUGHTER! I get it! Good one, Commissioner!"
I could continue, there are other examples both in and out of canon of Joker having masochistic tendencies. His fear of getting pummeled mostly comes from the Bronze age (and possibly Silver age, I'm not as well versed in those eras of comic book history), not so much the Modern age (although it is there from time to time).
Also, I wanted to comment and say that in the pre-New 52 and Post-Infinite Crisis continuity, The Long Halloween is DC's go-to origin for Two Face, rendering all others non-canon, just as Dark Victory (also by Loeb/Sale) is now the go-to origin for Robin, rendering all others non-canon.
Source: Comics, http://www.therealbatmanchronologyproject.com/the-modern-age/the-year-one-era/
Long Halloween is listed as happening late Year Three through Year Four.
Gothamstreets you forgot about one change to the Ra's Al Ghul for the movie: He was responsible for the death of Bruce Wayne's parents, in a similar fashion to how the Joker was responsible for the Wayne's death, only with Ra's its only indirectly. Either way, both of Batman's most dangerous villains from the comics interpreted for their respective films(Burton's 89, Nolan's Begins) had them linked to the creation of Batman.
ReplyDeleteI thought I included it but apparently I missed it. Thanks
ReplyDeleteWhile Actress 'Kim Bassinger' has blond hair, Vicki Vale was red headed in the comics. But according to Batman creator Bob Kane, Vale was supposed to be blond in the comics, and her hair came out red due to a coloring error in her first appearance.
ReplyDeleteAlso it's pronounced Rashe. Dennis O'Neil, the creator of the character, says so. I've always said it's Rashe. 'Raz' just rings really false to me.
If you grew up with the animated series, you should know that, since they use the correct pronunciation on there too.
That quote from Kane would be very useful. To be honest I wasn't familiar with it but it makes perfect sense since Kane was able to bring out a lot of his original ideas
ReplyDeleteI heard that Marilyn Monroe was said to be Bob Kane's inspiration for Vicky Vale, however, his editor wanted her to be a red head instead of a blonde.
ReplyDeleteumm.. for batman begins when he says ("I'm meant to understand any of that?" you have to remember that Lucius just came in the room and didn't know he was Batman yet so Bruce has to keep up the dumb playboy facade and before he knew lucuius was in the room he had perfect understanding of the drug and how it work
ReplyDeleteTDK Joker i agree with most of it but I remember some comics and cartoons after the first appearances shown with Joker taking Batman on in hand to hand combat
but i applaud the research never the less
I believe Alfred told him the truth when Bruce was out. Thats why there was never any actual confession or any reveal scene shown or no comment when the Tumbler was all over the news
ReplyDeleteNot to mention there isnt really any explanation as to why Bruce had a weaponized hallucinogen in his system, and Fox was also a trusted friend of the Wayne family
And then comes the fact that Bruce never studied physics beyond college from which he dropped out of
As for Joker being able to handle Batman, they were very, very rare instances and usually outside of continuity
Gothamstreets The TDK Joker is not a physical match for Batman I mean all the times he's been victorious against Bat's physically is when he had several minions, or when he had dogs which distracted Batman enough to strike a blow.
ReplyDeleteImagine if TDK Joker didn't have all that, do you really think he'd even be able to land a blow on him?
Well, he did very well in beating him up and eventually gaining an upper hand in the climax on the top of the building, pinning him down and keeping him in one place
ReplyDeleteStill not really a physical match though....
ReplyDeleteAfter being bitten by those dogs, with that distracting Sonar technology than it'd be pretty difficult to gain the upper hand easily against a guy significantly weaker than yourself, especially when your fighting a unpredictable skinny homicidal maniac who dresses like a clown.
Though as depicted at the Harvey Dent party sequence at Bruce's penthouse Batman instantly punched Joker out, easily dominating him physically. If not for his henchmen, he'd be done for and be dispatched of quickly
It just doesn't seem to me like he's physical match for Batman in this version either.
''neither was Christopher Nolan and they read only what was passed to them by studio and their writers.''
ReplyDeleteThis is somewhat untrue, Jonathan Nolan said that when he was younger Chris bought him ''Dark Knight Returns'' for his birthday, and even Batman Year One.
Here's a link.
http://www.empireonline.com/interviews/interview.asp?IID=1057
He was familiar with the comics prior to his involvement with Batman. He just wasn't a comic book aficionado like his brother or Goyer was.
"R'as al Ghul... Doesn't have a daughter"
ReplyDeleteHe has.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteThe introduction almost hid this article's agenda.
ReplyDeleteThe only agenda is that being faithful to the source barely equals the quality of the story or characters, none of the movies are mirror images of the comic book counterparts, some are more, some are less, but its not the faithfulness that makes one or the other of those a great film, it is its feel, design, characters, music, cinematography, heart.
DeleteDo YOU think the Nolan trilogy is so successfull and acclaimed because it had more comic book elements? Or was it successfull because of the great acting, direction and story? How about people who had never read a Batman comic book, how come they love this trilogy as well?